Nehor vs Korihor- Battle of the Deniers!

– Nehor is religious, but denies a Christ

– Korihor is an Atheist, and seeks signs and evidence before faith

– Both remove the godly attributes of Faith, Hope & Charity



Raw Transcript

So Nehor versus Korihor I want to go over a couple of different principles

that we find in each of these as the Book of Mormon calls them anti-christ

and of course when we say the word anti-christ we don’t mean someone who is

sent from the other side so to speak but rather someone who does not believe in

Christ that’s what that means it’s someone who is against the belief in the

atonement against the belief in a savior of the world someone who has died and

has taken on the sins of the entire world and redeemed mankind that is an

anti-christ based on what the book of Mormon has to say but there are two

different anti-christ that the Book of Mormon focuses in on and gives that

title to the first is Nehor and here with Nehor we find in Alma one a

character that is religious that wants to form in a sense a new church and who

is focused only on the lower law that is all mankind is automatically redeemed so

God created us and God has redeemed all of us and therefore consequences to our

decisions do not matter that’s something that gets pulled out when you take out

Christ now Nehor is put into the Book of Mormon narrative specifically by Mormon

so that we can see what happens when Christ is removed from religion so we

can keep religion in place we can have a belief in God we can have a church we

can have a community of common belief but when we remove Christ from that set

of beliefs we completely change the spiritual economy of the individuals

that in in that belief system and here’s what I mean by that

the attributes of faith hope and charity those are completely tied to the Savior

we have first faith in someone who has died for us and who has borne our

burdens right we have to have faith in somebody else something outside of

ourselves it changes who we are it changes our outlook on having spiritual

support it changes our outlook on being able to grow and progress outward

towards something else it gives us an example of love and mercy at the very

highest level right our focus is at the very highest level is of a God of an

example of a savior of all mankind that is full of love and mercy that changes


everything it’s not just a god of creation and it’s not just a god of

judgment but it is a God that participates fully in the spiritual

economy not just from prayers not just from helping to guide us maybe or from

answering some of our will but rather someone who has completely participated

in fact given the very largest part into the spiritual economy that allows us to

move forward and to grow so that’s removed without Christ

so having faith in that act in that act of love and that act of payment in the

atonement changes our theology completely it changes who we are it

changes how we worship so imagine if you are a believer in Christ if you are a

member of the church and you took Christ out of there you still had a belief in

God but you removed the atonement from the picture then you leave a massive

void obviously of how the spiritual economy is going to work

now it’s just a matter of judgment and therefore you are the same way right you

are simply going to be working off of judgment or zero judgment in the sense

that there is no hell and no reason to have a savior to begin with so faith

first is removed on the atonement secondly hope is removed and what do I

mean by hope well we can have a hope in a heaven or a better life if we still

believe in God as Nehor does here but it’s not the same hope and that hope is

reliant on us improving on us taking on our own consequences and guilt and then

laying it on to the Savior that changes everything

again putting proxy the concept of proxy in changes the spiritual economy and it

changes what our hope is a hope of us improving a hope of us progressing not

just being taken and put in it put into a better state but actually having an

understanding of a hope of a better us a better future because of who we are

becoming and how we change if all mankind are automatically redeemed

that’s taken out of the picture and all fulfillment of who we are and how we can

become like the Savior and like our Heavenly Father is removed from the

picture and and therefore hope is removed so faith starts everything off a

consequence of faith is hope right faith in the atonement allows us to have a

look forward as to who we can actually become not just put into a certain place

where there are harps and constant singing of hymns and then of course that

hope gives us what the Savior has and that is love that hope of becoming who

we want to become is based off of the love of the Savior that he showed us and that we

are to exemplify because without that charity that hope is useless because

it’s not a hope of just making it to heaven it is a hope of who we can become

through our own experience and through the faith before that that we have in

the atonement and so charity then to our fellow man charity even to God

love is what that means love to mankind is how we get to that state of ourselves

not just a different environment and us also then following the example of a

Savior in participating in the spiritual economy allows us to have that faith

allows us to have that hope and that hope gives us then the charity the

understanding of the process of becoming like the Savior right so that is all

removed when we take Christ out of the picture it’s a completely different type

of a religion think of Western civilization the big difference one of

the two major big differences of Western civilization is the whole it’s it’s

a even though we’re living to some degree on the fumes of religious

Christianity today we still have in our minds in as a bedrock in our culture the

idea of a God that suffered below all of us and paid the price through love and

mercy that changes who we are when we believe that in that when that is who we

are tied to and that is our bond and that is our ideal then that is going to

change who we are individually and who we operate as families and between

fellow men that is going to change culture dramatically

 nothing is more important in culture than religion and so that’s a

very big change the other difference would be the ideas coming from say for

example the Greeks that’s the Romans and and then previous to that actually the

Egyptians but that is one of the major differences in Western civilization is

the ideal the idea of a suffering loving God that is fully invested fully

invested in the spiritual economy now how does that relate to you directly

apart from what your belief is well in one way I think we ought to be looking

at this is what happens in my life when I remove myself or I remove Christ from

the situation or from my life in any degree if I am NOT leaning on the

atonement if I do not have Christ up as the ideal of what I rely on a loving

merciful God then how does that change my life how does that change how I deal

with other people the answer to that I believe is that it reduces your faith it

reduces your trust it reduces your participation in the spiritual economy

it reduces your hope which puts you in a completely different state of mind in

your life and then it’s going to reduce your charity it just is it’s going to

your aura if your ideal is not there before you of charity of

bearing the burdens of sacrifice then that is going to change the way that you

live your life and so it’s crucial that we have Christ there as the ideal now we

can take Nehor and contrast him with another Anti-christ in the Book of Mormon

who is core whore and in core whore we can see in Alma  we look at somebody a

little bit different Korihor is not like Nehor Korihor is not religious at all Korihor does not believe in a god period he does not believe in a community of a church that worships a god and so his big

difference is that he not only is removing Christ obviously as an atheist

from the scene but he is also moving any kind of a god or a supernatural being

that is the creator of all of us and so his biggest issue Mormon puts the Nair

in the narrative here the biggest issue here in the conflict in the trial here

between Cora whore and Alma is that Korihor wants a sign so as we’ve discussed

with faith hope and charity Korihor here wants to take everything and not

only eliminate it he wants to turn it on its head completely invert it and he

wants the sign first he doesn’t believe in faith there’s no faith there’s no

process for us to go through there’s nothing external from us it is

simply signs actions merit he is someone we might recognize many times over today

who is a an atheist and a an extreme libertarian maybe and what I mean by

that because I know probably a number of you that listen to this are our

libertarian or consider yourselves libertarians but what I mean by that is

that it’s a hundred percent merit-based that’s what core Whore believes in he

believes that every man accomplishes based on his ability and of course

there’s truth to that but that’s all there is there is no

mercy there’s no charity involved with that here’s what he says in in in chapter

says that he began to teach against the prophecies concerning the coming of

Christ it says here in verse  and he was anti-christ that’s how we need to think about

it not as a specifically a title necessarily as much but as a statement

he was anti-christ he was against the idea of having Christ and he says that

he did not believe what was spoken by the prophets concerning the coming of

Christ so he was not gonna look forward to a redeemer but he believed instead

and he goes on here in the chapter to say that he does not believe in any kind

of a prophecy or believe in anything that you cannot see so think of the

atheist a very libertarian type of people that would be very focused on

science science is great right but those that would say look science is basically

my religion science is truth and science is at the very top of my values and of

my truth hierarchy if you will that’s what Korihor here is he is going

to believe specifically in science and only science and he’s going to not

believe in any kind of possible prophecy no revelation whatsoever does that sound

familiar and he asks this question he says why do you yoke yourselves with

such foolish things why do you look fora Christ for no man can know of anything

which is to come so along with obviously the lack of a belief in God obviously

there would be no belief in Revelation and then he goes right to the heart of

the idea of Christ this is it right here this is a great scripture says and many

more such things did he say unto them telling them that there could be no

atonement made for the sins of men so he goes right to the idea of proxy he won’t

believe it of course that’s the entire gospel is bearing other each other’s

burdens right well the entire gospel is built off of the idea of proxy the

entire gospel is built off the idea of mercy and atonement payment from

one person to another that is love that is that is mercy but he says that there

can be no atonement made for the sins of men but every man fared in this life

according to the management of the creature right so that’s the libertarian

statement right there and again I’m not saying libertarianism is bad unless it’s

it’s completely by itself as it does here with core Whore and he is saying

that look if you’re really capable then that’s how well you’re gonna do and if

you’re not very capable too bad for you that’s just the way it is there’s no

mercy going on here whatsoever so live and let live completely which means nope

no participation in the spiritual economy with each other and so it says

that he led many when men and women to commit all sorts of sins because there’s

no belief if having a faith in something outside of yourself in leaning on

something by proxy therefore there is no hope for a future because obviously if

you don’t believe in an afterlife or you don’t believe in the ability to have you

don’t believe in eternal progression and you’re not going to have at least as

much charity or love for each other if you don’t have that ideal at the top of

your of your values and then again he gets right to the crux of everything and

and inverts this this is out how Mormon is stating this here he says if he

says us to Alma if thou wilt show me a sign that I may be convinced that there

is a god yay show unto me that he high-power and then will I be convinced of

the truth of thy words as Alma has gone and tried to testify to him about the

existence of God so he wants a sign first and you can see how that goes

hand-in-hand with someone who would be an atheist because if I have to have all

of the evidence up front then I’m gonna have a real problem with

faith and building up to receive that evidence and by the way this is a

very important issue that doesn’t mean that you don’t ever receive the evidence

that’s the whole point to say that faith is not based on evidence if you’ve

watched my video on faith is wrong you faith is based on evidence the growth of

faith is based on evidence but you can’t invert the process if you are a few are

wanting the sign first and then you can believe in something then what the

Book of Mormon is teaching us here what Mormon is teaching us here is that you

have just lost all of your own personal growth the value is so high on the

ability to trust in principles and to trust in the atonement that it is at the

center of the entire gospel it is the first principle of the gospel and

without that we cannot have personal progression we cannot move forward and

become more like the Savior if we are signed seekers first then we lose out on

our spiritual progression obviously becoming like the Savior has everything

to do with exerting and building faith and having that trust in these

principles and in the atonement and he wants to say no it’s the other way

around but if we do build that faith and have those principles where we learn to work

with them just like we would with someone else we have trust in then the

evidence does come if we are exerting the faith then we get greater faith as

the evidence pours on more and more and more and more but not evidence first we

plant the seed we nurture the seed and then we get the fruit

that’s how life works and Cora are here watch the fruit and then he would say

okay now maybe I’ll plant the seed right he doesn’t want to go plant the

seed and nurture it and build and water the tree and fertilize the tree and then

receive the fruit that’s how everything works he wants to do it backwards and

that just doesn’t work so we have these two competing anti Christ’s or against

the idea of Christ one on the one hand is Nehor who is religious who is a

believer in God but he is focused only on the lower law and he does not believe

in anything that needs to participate in kind of a participation in a spiritual

economy with God that would include faith and hope and charity and burying

each other’s burdens and we can see that in ourselves sometimes I know that I can

then on the other hand we have Korihor who there’s where there’s no

belief in God whatsoever and in that position Mormon couples it

with being a sign seeker and not being able to have the faith first and then

the evidence but to turn it on its head and have the evidence first and then

have the faith afterwards which doesn’t work anyway you’re skipping a major step

in that position so this applies in our own life we all have a little bit don’t

get too defensive on me here we all have a little bit of Nehor in us and in a

little bit of Korihor in us and these are places that we just don’t want to

spend much time in or move down those paths where we remove Christ from our

lives or the idea that Christ represents for us in how we’re going to live our

lives consider this a small primer to the fourth filter that I like to use in the

scriptures that I call the Nehor principle and I will be focusing on that

a lot more in the lessons as we go forward in these episodes and I will be doing a an episode or two specifically

on the Nehor principle and what the loss of Christ means to the ancient

Israelites those in the Book of Mormon and elsewhere that we find in the scriptures I’ll talk to you next time

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